So a parent's instinct is often to push them harder. Hey, like you've got such talent. If you just

worked at it, you know, just go to another practice or ask for a few more drills from your coach.

You know, we want so badly to do that. And the kid's like blowing you off. So actually what I would

recommend to the parent is to just like light off completely and let the kid fail a little bit.

Oh, parent, right. Oh my God. You know, my kid's not going to do it. My kid's going to fail. And

yeah, because what's the benefit of your kid failing there? is they are going to take on the

emotion and the frustration, which is good in this case because that's a driver, right? It's a

driver for them to do better. Before, it was the parent doing that work for them, doing that drive

and doing that, I want to get better. We need to reverse that. Welcome to Raising a Resilient

Athlete, the show that uses youth sports as a window into one of the hardest and loneliest jobs

there is, parenting. I'm your host, Rob Carmichael, and in each episode, I sit down with a

cognitive behavioral therapist and an expert in parent training, as well as the CEO of one of the

largest youth sports organizations in the country. We tackle what you see on sidelines everywhere,

the nerves, the meltdowns, the self-doubt, the conflict with others, and we give parents practical

tools to better support their kids. Consider that youth sports and activities are perhaps the most

common vehicle kids have for building resilience skills. All right. So welcome to Raising the

Resilient Athlete. Today, we're going to be talking about something that Carl hears all the time

from a lot of his parents. And I know I've heard it many times as well. And that's how do I get my

kid to practice more? I want to develop a good work ethic in them. And Carl, actually, you guys do

a great job. You guys send out a survey. You get a lot of parent feedback. And it's funny because

one of the themes that comes out is, hey, I want them to have fun. But you also ask, what would

you... like to do in your own athletic career? If you could redo it, what would you do? And a lot

of it came back as I wish I could take it more seriously. I wish I could train more seriously. So I

thought we'd kick it off there. Carl, what do you tell parents when they bring that question to

you? How do I get my kid to train harder? Yeah, I think the only answer is it has to be kid led and

the kid has to come to it. The problem I think as parents, we feel like we know the answers and the

answer is more repetitions, more work, more repetitions, more time out there. But I think the

question is how to get there, right? And so I think my general guideline is it has to be kid-led.

Ultimately, I'm going to give my kid every opportunity in the world that he wants, but not trying

to go plus one from there. What would kid-led look like? What does that mean to you? I think what

could look like is such a good question. I think the most relevant example in modern media is Jalen

Brunson. Jalen Brunson is about to play in the NBA finals and has by every metric outperformed his

size and his frame and his upside. Right. And then all these videos are out there of Jalen

Brunson's dad pushing him so hard to do it. Right. And so I think you also see it's hard to just

peel back the layers to this onion. right? It's really hard to peel back the layers of this onion.

If you've watched Breakpoint, which is a Netflix documentary about tennis, my wife and I were

always joking that it would be easy to make your kid a professional athlete. All you have to

sacrifice is their childhood and your relationship. And if you're willing to give up those two

things, you can have a pro. There's a big ROI though. Think about that. Curry just signed a $400

million deal. Well, I think... every parent would say, yeah, exactly.

Kids should lead it. I think there's a huge disconnect between what parents say and then what they

actually do. Not because they're trying to do something different, but when you are in a

frustrating moment with them not practicing, like, I don't know, especially in this area, the DMV,

Montgomery Heights, people pay a freaking fortune for these athletics, right? And so to have your

kid not care for one second in between is painful.

For a lot of families, it's easier said than done, I think, to not really push them to work in

between. And if we're super vulnerable here, and I think other parents probably feel this as well,

it feels good when your kid succeeds out there, right? So when your kid is not working in between,

you're pissed. You're like, hey, come on. You know, I want you to do better. This is worth

something to me in that moment. Yeah, there's so much to discuss here, guys. I think there's two

questions there. One is, when is enough enough? right and so like you know my kid is playing

baseball and my kid's a kindergartner right he's playing baseball once a week and he's playing game

on the weekends and so like maybe if he wants to play catch or hit a couple balls which he did last

night in between that's awesome but maybe at that point that's enough right but if your kid is in

fifth sixth grade and they're getting serious about elite flag star football and they have two

practices a week in a game but this is their thing we want them to be out there doing some kind of

like speed a strength performance, right? We want them going out and then catching balls. And so I

think one of these questions about, is it kid-led versus is it what the kid wants?

Because I think we as parents, you know, with Chet, JBT or whatever, we can outline a better plan

for the kid than he wants, right? And I think what the Jalen Brunson thing turns into something

positive versus the Tiger Woods duct tape your kid's hands to the golf club and have...

manifests in weird sexual things down the road, right? Is Jalen Brunson said to his dad, I want to

be the best basketball player possible. How can we get there? And he designed a program with Jalen

where he also, with Tiger Woods. Hold on. You just brought up such an important word. I don't know

if you're going to hurt it. He devised a program with him. Yeah. Together.

And it's what Jalen wanted. Even though it's what he wanted. Kids' brains are non-adult brains.

I want to play in the NBA. For 99.9% of kids,

no, not going to happen, right? So if a kid came to their parent and saying that, I think the

parent needs to adjust that a little bit. The kid, they want it. But if your kid is not a naturally

gifted athlete, you pushing them, pushing them, pushing them is not going to get it where it needs

to be, right? Somewhat of what your kid is saying, but doing it with them and stages so that you

can adapt. what is happening is not going well. Sorry, Carl, go ahead. No, there's so many layers

to this, right? Because it's like, if your kid's in fifth, sixth, seventh grade and he wants to

make varsity, he wants to do something like that. I think it's appropriate to design a program and

to say, hey, let's sit down and what are the things you want to do every week, right? And like,

what's our goals? What's our like plan for this? I think the other side of that is just free play

and how to get them playing with their buddies. And I think that's a totally different. So an

example is I live in a lovely community, but I'm about to use it as an example. And his kid was out

there yesterday playing with our neighbor and competing, playing soccer. They were doing this one

-on-one thing and they're playing and they're competing and they're doing everything that you

would want your kid to do in that moment, right? And so the question is in that moment,

do you look at it and say, hey, you should really think about doing this and get that.

three percent extra technical feedback? Or do you just say, you know, over dinner that I love that

you're out there just competing? You know, that reminds me of something Rob calls me out on all the

time, rightfully so. When we're at the dinner table having discussions and my kids are excited

about something and they're saying it and they say something with improper grammar, unlike Grammar

Queen. So I'm like, well, instead of good. And you know what it does is just shuts them down.

It's so hard to get these kids to open up and to be at the table and talking about it with you that

sometime I think you need to take a lesser win than try to push and try to make them.

And it's so enticing. Kids out there shooting by themselves and you just want to be like, hey,

did you think about using your left hand a little more? Or like, hey. hey, that's awesome you're

out there and doing this. And it's just like, you know what? They didn't ask. They didn't ask. I

think I'm guilty of that. I kind of want to shift back for one second. Like there's the Jalen

Brunsons of the world that say, hey, dad, I want to be an NBA player. And maybe they even know what

it takes in the sense of they're willing to put in these brutal workouts. I feel like the 90% here

of the parents that are bringing this to us are really, I think we got to ask, why are they

concerned about their kids playing more or practicing more? One Betsy mentioned in the DMV area is

like, hey, they're putting some resources to this and maybe they have higher expectations.

But I think we do have to think about parent. What's your why? Carl, you talked about values a

couple episodes ago. Like what does the parent really want when they say, hey, how do I get my kid

to practice more? I think what do you really want? I mean, we keep coming back to like our core

guidelines or our core values and what do we really want? And I think that's such a big question

because, you know, I think the thing that nobody wants to talk about is.

90 of your athletic top end is determined by genetics. You know, there's crazy statistics about if

your dad played major league baseball, you're 200 times more likely to play major league baseball.

And so understanding that so much of the top end potential is already baked in,

that like, what are we using sports for? For me, the number one thing that I want to use sports for

is this idea that we can fail at something and get back and improve.

Right. That we can get better over time through hard work. That's the number one thing.

When I talk with my daughter, I was thinking some of the branding sticks. Some of it doesn't.

Right. But I'm like, you know, your superpower is you can practice anything and that you're willing

to practice anything and you're not giving up. And that's what I love about how you're trading. I

think there's something else really important that sports give, and that is establishing a work

ethic. for future because most everyone is not going to be a professional athlete,

but most everyone is going to have to work hard at something in their life. And when you're eight,

you're not working hard on spreadsheets, obviously, but working hard to have a better throw makes

sense. That is an eight-year-old version of building WorkEpic. And so like,

that's what we should be validating for the kids when they're doing it, right? So like when they're

out there doing it, I think the biggest thing is, hey, I see you working, dude. I can just see from

the beginning of season to now how much better you've gotten and how hard you've been working to do

it. And so I think like finding smaller wins, celebrating smaller wins,

validating effort, however big the effort is, you could look at it and your kid's outside playing

and it's like, it looks pathetic. They're dribbling around. They're spacing out. They're putting up

shots, right? But maybe for them, that was what they had that day. Dude, I love that you're out

there doing it. And then maybe they build up that identity. Like, hey, I'm someone that practices

what I care about. And it builds from there. I was just thinking about my son's comment.

He came home. Robbie, you'll remember this. That after one of the games over the weekend, he was so

upset. You won. It was that first game that you won. And he was like. Because he missed four free

throws at the end of the game. And we thought that's what it was, because he missed throws. I

actually didn't follow up with you on this conversation. Oh. Yeah. So I sat down with him. And

first of all, I did not have this conversation on the car ride home. I found him in another moment

and just sat real close to him and just said, hey, what do you, what's going on?

What are you thinking? Just open-ended question around it. And he didn't want to talk about it.

And sometimes when kids know nothing, nothing, sometimes a strategy is to start. handing out some

experimental balloons. Oh, I wonder, is it because you lost those free throws? Because that would

be hard. Or I wonder it's because someone else made that good play that you hope to be in.

And often when you do that with kids, then they can, then they're very happy to say to you as a

parent, no, no, no, no, no, you're wrong, parent. Okay, you're going to use this angle to your

advantage. No, it wasn't that. It was that everyone after the game was telling me good job and I

didn't do a good job. I wasn't playing well. Or he probably said,

I wasn't playing good. And you were like, well. And I did not play, wasn't playing good. And that's

what was bothering him. Yeah, I definitely was guilty of that. I remember he shook his head. Why

would you say that? So I think like that is a good therapist insight into this,

which is you don't really always know what your kid's upset about. Right. Yeah. And like Betsy, I

think one thing I used to the other night, I was meeting with a couple of our former players and

staff members. We just lost somebody. And I was using your strategy of don't look them directly in

the eye, go on a walk, you know? And so we had to talk about a loved one that they lost. And I was

like, Hey, let's go get Froyo. And we had a great conversation. Two of my most impactful

conversations with members of our staff have been in a car, not looking at each other.

Right. It takes so much pressure off the conversation. So I think you're right to identify what's

the actual problem. I remembered why I brought this story because, Carl, you were talking about

praising the kid no matter what they're even just getting out there, you know, and I was reflecting

back on how my kid during that game was out there in that game. But you also need your praise to be

genuine and matching your kid's mood around it, I would say.

Right. So if your kid is practicing outside and is frustrated with themselves and they come in and

you're like, great job for getting out there. they're pissed at you no matter what because they're

not in that space of wanting to hear the praise even though they are doing a good thing yeah yeah

and we're conflating a couple things right we're conflating like hard work with hobbies right and

like love for commitment to a process where it's like we don't want to always make them think that

if they're throwing the football with their neighbor that they're like practicing it's just

something that could just be something that they enjoy right and I think that's the other side of

this is like if you want to get your kids working hard and i want to get my kids working hard i

want my kids to work hard right but i also want them to develop a love for the game and so like i

think like rob correctly inserted this very loaded word which is optimization you know and how much

are we optimizing versus how much are we building a love for the game and then the third component

of that which is what are we doing to our relationship that's what you're saying about your son

missing four free throws right and he's upset because he actually got false praise after the game

and i think that's really we should always be testing ourselves for just this past the bullshit

test am i bullshitting my kid was that actually a good job was this actually a good effort was it

honest but i think the other side of that is a frustrating place for us is our kid is

underperforming based off of whatever their potential their peers but not putting in extra work to

solve it. So that happens all the time, right? And you hit it, Carl, because you know they have the

potential and you can see it and they're not doing anything to make themselves better when they

could be great. So a parent's instinct is often to push them harder. Hey, like you've got such

talent. If you just worked at it, you know, just practice, go to another practice or ask for a few

more drills from your coach. You know, we want so badly to do that. And the kid's like blowing you

off. So actually what I would recommend to the parent is to. just like lay off completely and let

the kid fail a little bit. Oh, parents, right? Like, oh my God, you know, my kid's not going to do

it. My kid's going to fail. And yeah, because what's the benefit of your kid failing there is they

are going to take on the emotion and the frustration, which is good in this case because that's a

driver, right? It's a driver for them to do better. Before it was the parent doing that work for

them, doing that drive and doing that. I want to get better. We need to reverse that. Let me push

back as the parent who wants their kid to practice. Yes. Well, what if they don't? Don't what? What

if they don't get frustrated? What if they're just totally fine being below average? Yeah. Or

mediocre. Then I would go back to your values. What is your... as a parent? Is it having a kid

who's enjoying themselves and having fun or is it, and you know what, for some parents it is,

I need my kid to succeed here and make a lot of money. Okay. If that's your value, then I would say

something different. The other thing I hear so much is people talking about ROI and investment. And

I'd be shocked if anyone listening to this actually thinks that there's going to be a payoff to the

investment of youth sports. In terms of a scholarship or future earnings, I'd be shocked if there's

a single person listening to this. Carl, I think maybe high school age when you're showing some

good talent. I think if people are looking to spend money in youth sports for that reason, or even

teenage sports for that reason, it's almost just a fool's errand. Like, I think that really what we

want is for our kids to meet their potential. And that we're trying to put resources behind them to

like help them meet their potential and help hopefully learn values in the process. But I think

sports as an investment is a fool's investment. Well, I 100% agree. But there are a lot of fools

out there as well. I think as a parent, I think it just feels good to watch your kids succeed.

Especially in something competitive. That feels good. You feel proud. Such a cool feeling when your

kid scores a touchdown. And of course you want that to happen again and again. And I think there is

this risk. of who are they scoring for if you're the one that's asking for the like because at the

heart of what happens if my kid doesn't want to practice after you let them get frustrated or maybe

or maybe it's even worse if they don't get frustrated and from that parent's standpoint they're

like wait a second they're okay with like carl said being below average at this thing and i think

the quote unquote right answer which is not an easy one is like yeah of course it's okay because

they're having fun they're with their friends Here's what parents often say there. You know, are

you okay with being below average? Okay. First of all, that type of questioning does not work well

with kids. Okay. Talk about a leading question. Like the kid knows what the answer should be.

So they're going to say it. It's the open-ended question showing, expressing curiosity and

interest that are going to get you your better answers. Like, hey, I noticed you weren't doing as

well in that game. What do you think's going on? I think especially frustration is such a tool,

a potential tool for sublimation, right? And by sublimation, I mean putting excess energy from

something towards something more productive. So I think an open-ended question like, yeah, see,

you're getting frustrated about this. What are some things you think you could do between now and

the next season? to put yourself in a better position next time around. There's a question before

that. Not what are some things that you think you need to do, but what was the first thing you

said? You said... I noticed you're getting frustrated. Yeah. What's that like for you? Yeah.

You need to lead them to some version of, I don't like that and want to change. The other analogy

that I use with kids is before your biggest game in your career.

Whenever that is, if it's the end of high school, if it's the end of college, whenever your biggest

game is, you want to be a million-dollar athlete. You want to have all the tools and all the

skills to be a million-dollar athlete in that game, right? How do you get a million dollars?

How do you become a million-dollar athlete? And I think the answer to that is just put a dollar on

the bank at a time. And so you have to start putting in the work now, even if it's just pocket

change. Right. But a dollar here, a dollar there, maybe you have a five dollar day. Right. But I

think I try to get kids thinking about, but where do you want to be at the end of your career? And

what do you want to start doing now to start getting ready for that? So I like what you said about

one day, a dollar, one day, five dollars, because I think kids become very frustrated with that.

You know, one day their shot is on and one day it's not. And so they're going to put in different

amounts of practice, different days. And that's OK. That doesn't mean they failed. Right. Just

because they're not being consistent every day. I think adults would love to see their kid doing

the same, just a half an hour a day. And for some kids that works, to build into their routine,

absolutely. For other kids, it's okay to be a little, you know, some ebbs and flows with it.

I have a question on that, like Nick Saban's line, like, hey, if you want to be extraordinary, you

got to do extraordinary things. And, you know, talk to kids like, hey, it just takes five minutes a

day ball handling or, you know, running routes 15 minutes a day or whatever it is. The flip side of

that is the expression turning work in or play into work. Right. It's kid driven. Got to be kid

-driven. Some kids want it, and that's great. And they want you to, you know, can you print me a

chart off? Some of my kids are in it that way. Can you print me a chart off? I want to keep track

of it. And they do it themselves. Sure, I can help you with that piece. I'm not going to chart it

for you. As the parent that's maybe looking to nudge, is that where we can float those balloons? I

noticed that so-and-so, I heard that Michael Jordan practices every day or whatever. You know,

I'm trying to meet parents where they are. Yeah, yeah, Betsy, how can we use your therapeutic

excellence to manipulate our kids? We roll a ball out on the kitchen floor.

I believe in that rock. By the way, I'm making playable spaces. And so it's like, you can't go

anywhere in my house or life without there being something to play with. Absolutely. Like

accessibility. I got these indoor balls that make no sound. And there's just like everything at a

wrestling mat on the floor. And so it's like, I think creating your space as a playable space.

You know, I like what you said about that because you know what always wins is inertia.

So if you have to get up out of your bed, walk downstairs,

put on your shoes, put on your coat, get your supplies, ask your parent to drive you to the field.

That's a lot. Right. If you have something that is right there in your normal flow,

the inertia doesn't have to change. You're already walking by. Oh, you see a ball. I'm going to

pick it up and start doing things with it. And so like, this is a little bit self-serving of me

because I'm a child and I love play, but I do think fostering play and gamifying everything.

I'm so guilty of it, but I'm also so good at it where I can like turn anything into a game.

My daughter's learning to ride a bike, and we have these dodgeballs. We have a big bin of balls in

front of my house. I'm lucky to live in our cul-de-sac. And we just play a game where we peg her

with dodgeballs while we're riding a bike. But it's fun. They like it. My kid's throwing a ball and

catching a ball, and my daughter's learning to balance. And I think as much as you can gamify

anything, it's like you're adding to the volume of work. Adding to the volume of work?

What do you mean by that? The volume of work the kids put in. And so I think my son, I tell him

when he misses balls, I'm like, dude, my whole team, they have a playoff game today. They're

kindergartners. Every time you swing a bat, even if you miss, you're getting stronger.

And every time you're doing this, if you make a shot or don't, you're getting better. You're

learning how to triangulate a football in space. And if you drop it, it's still an experience. And

it's still adding to this volume of work that's going to make you a better athlete. And so it's

like, I'm always trying to solve for. maximum number of playable hours.

And I think at some point, you need to now shift that playable hours number to focused,

intentional work. But in the beginning, you're just trying to get a big mass of playtime.

It's kind of practice in disguise is what you're saying. Sounds a lot like manipulation, Carl. It's

all manipulation. Are they enjoying it? Are they enjoying it?

And are they getting something out of it that's going to transfer to bigger than sports? And

another pushback I might get from the parent is like, if I don't do this, they're going to be on a

screen, right? So how bad could this be? I don't know. Or how bad could it be if I'm trying to

encourage them to do this instead of be on a screen? I'm sympathetic to that. For those not on

video, which no one is, Betsy just rolled her eyes and gave a, I can't believe. just said that

phrase. So explain. Yeah, I would say you are the parent.

Put in some limits for your child if they are having a struggle getting off the screen.

Now, limits can also include signing up for clubs and sports,

whatever, as a force. Oh, I have to get off because I'm going to football practice.

That's okay, too. But to expect a kid to do that, to get off a screen on their own and transition

to some kind of hard physical task, again,

the inertia and the screen, you are going to lose every time. The other thing is when I'm talking

about limits, the other thing that I put a limit on is how much will also work. And so I'm always

trying to like, I think kids remember the feeling. It's even why for our younger kids in flag

football and flag star, we end the season. two weeks earlier than the older kids. Cause I want them

leaving the field. Like I really enjoyed that. Right. And so like my son last night, we did soft

toss and he had two buckets of balls and he just did a great job on that second bucket. I'm like,

Hey dude, let's call it there. Dude, that's a great session. That's a great work session. And then

he actually said like, let's do one more. Right. And so now he's ending with his buy-in kid driven

practice. and on his terms and feeling good about things. So I think like let good enough be good

enough sometimes is also a great tactic. Let's see. Look at these questions and you guys can say if

you want to jump in on any of these. What does self-motivation actually look like in kids? What

does self-motivation actually look like in kids? Let's see. Excitement. Excitement to get out

there. Maybe we can close with some not-to-dos, right? As parents, what are some things that

might kill that motivation? Yeah, turn work, play into work.

We've been talking about the flip side of that. But I like talking about what parents do that may

not have the intended consequence that they're looking for. I would say it's very hard because I

think that people that are yelling at their kids are also probably not the parents that are just

watching and observing their kids. But I would say if your child's shoulders hunch over and they

immediately deflate every time you're saying something, that's a good feedback tool to stop saying

something. Like if your kids only go as far as you push them, then I think it's time to stop

pushing them. Yeah, we said in another episode, if you're doing more work than your child, then

something's wrong. Yeah, and if you care about it more than your child. If you're working harder

than your kid, yes. If you're caring more, if you're initiating the discussion more,

all signs that maybe you need to shift your approach. And we talked about, just to summarize, we

talked about a few of the conditions for... creating that self-motivation, like maybe

accessibility being one, making it fun, gamifying it,

putting it into their routine so you can overcome that inertia a little bit more. Organizing,

or I'd say back to Pearl's comment about the kids playing outside just organically, that

remembering that any kind of play, competitive play is good. It doesn't have to be so focused or

specific. I think facilitating a big kid hangout, one of the best things you could do and the best

thing you could do for your kid's social life, right? If you put five kids on a field, they're

going to play. So I think that's another part of shaping environments or facilitating environments

that foster play.

That's it for today's episode of Raising a Resilient Athlete. If anything we talked about today

resonated with you, we would love to hear about it. Please leave us a rating and a review wherever

you listen to podcasts. It takes about 30 seconds and it genuinely helps other parents find the

show. And if you know a mom, a dad, a coach, or anyone in the trenches of youth sports who could

use this, go ahead and share the episode with them. You can follow us on social media at Flagstar

Football and at Albert Baker and reach out anytime. We want to hear your stories,

your questions, and yes, your sideline moments. So until next time, keep showing up for your kids

on and off the field, and they'll show up for you. We'll see you next episode.